Silent Saloon.

[Charles Levien]

Here’s another...

What about the boot scraper — perhaps not with hobnailed boots?

[Malcolm Parker]

Jon's summary is correct.

It would have been nice to make the build as accurate as possible, but we haven't been able to arrange access to the Freehollow car and the expense account won't stretch to a trip to Switzerland!

This leaves us with a pair of doors and the firewall as the only original parts to work with.  Using these and extensive and detailed scaling from period photos, plus the published pictures of the Freehollow restoration, I reckon that we're pretty close to the original design, but with the best will in the world it isn't going to be a 100% perfect replica. 

In view of this and in consultation with the owner we've decided to take the opportunity to make a considerably more robust look-alike body, if at the expense of an increase in weight.  However, the flimsiness of the original GE construction is the very reason that so few survive and even if accurate drawings were available, I'm not certain that I'd have wanted to build an "unimproved" replica.

When you make the floorpan for a replica GE Silent Saloon, will you attach it to the body as originally, ie mountings at the lower sides of the scuttle and a third mounting under the spare wheel, or will the floorpan be an integral part of the body?
Whilst the original design was ingenious, it clearly was not very successful as many of these cars developed problems early on when the rear mounting failed, causing the body to drop onto the wheel arches.   It seems that within a few years, GE dropped the idea of a plywood floorpan in favour of a much more robust steel structure as used in the Wembley Saloon ( a detail yet to be confirmed).
When I built my Pytchley Saloon evocation, I made a very rigid floorpan out of 10mm plywood with 1" x 1" ash between the panels, glued and screwed together.  The floorpan had much more rigidity than a steel Chummy type floorpan as used on most vintage Austin 7's.   I took the view that if the floorpan is very rigid and the chassis is fitted with high camber, supple springs, body flexing should not be a problem.   To date the Pytchley has not displayed any evidence of body distortion.  I don't wish to tempt fate, it will probably fall to pieces at the entrance to Moreton in Marsh Fire Service College next July!  Bit like the Dawlish/Barrington Lea Francis in 'Monte Carlo or Bust'.

[Duncan Grimmond]

Love the pics of the tank, any dimensions available? Length, width, and the angle of dangle of the GE wing would do nicely. I happen to have a filler neck and cap in brass which is looking for a suitable home.
I'm guessing it would hold 3/4 of a gallon which should be more than enough to get you home from almost anywhere...

[JonE]

It surely can't be difficult to come up with more sensible, longer lived mounting points 90 years on, after people like Alex Moulton, Issigonis and the like have been busy in the interim? It would be a shame for the new GEs to be mere visual pastiches and not to be broadly supportive of those patents. We need some feedback from A7 people who have driven the original and restored cars.
Indeed, can any forum readers remember driving one from 50s or 60s (when they just about still in one piece?)

[Duncan Grimmond]

Regarding the half-round spare petrol tank, the capacity cannot be more than half a gallon.  I have the Desmo catalogue for 1934 which shows their one gallon wing tank for the Austin 7, which is square sided with a slightly domed top, and much larger.  It cost 8/6 in 1934.
Presumably the small half- round tank slides out of the fixing brackets once the retaining collar over the filler has been hinged up out of the way?

I can't see how the neck fixing (which seems to be hinged) could move enough unless there is a wing nut under the wing (not a good place). Slacken the nut and lift the rear edge clear of the mounting allowing its withdrawal from the ring?

[Duncan Grimmond]

Anybody with both tank and a tape measure out there?

[Martin Prior]

Jon raises an interesting point. What is a pastiche?

My feeling is that any copy that is made without a proper understanding of how and why the original was designed and built is a pastiche. It the case of Gordon England's patent construction, it seems to me that without the necessary insights, one would be making a bad copy of a bad design. Jon and I had this conversation about aspects of his lovely little shooting brake.

Has anyone ever bought a cheap Chinese rip-off gadget only to find that it CANNOT work, because someone has copied a photograph without understanding HOW it should work?

We're going to build this body with a version of the very robust, 3/4" ash board, Swallow floor. There can be absolutely no doubt about how that works!

I've often wondered about Gordon England's love of very lightweight ply construction. The lack of surviving bodies of the many hundreds built demonstrates its inadequacies. I have a suspicion that in the early 'twenties, GE bought a huge stock of war surplus aviation ply and was then stuck with it!

[Chris Garner]

Martin.
I think that part of the answer to your final paragraph was that GE was a pilot and designer of powered aircraft and gliders at BAC.

[Ruairidh Dunford]

Gordon England’s aim was never longevity, it was speed and form.

The early bodies were built with only this in mind and very successful they were too, the later saloons and two seaters stretched that aim too thinly.

The remains of two original Cup bodies here have only pins holding them together, no screws.

The Swallow sits firmly at the other end of the scale, concentrating looks over lightness. Having one of each - I appreciate both schools of thought.

[Howard Wright]

Jon raises an interesting point.  What is a pastiche? 

My feeling is that any copy that is made without a proper understanding of how and why the original was designed and built is a pastiche.  It the case of Gordon England's patent construction, it seems to me that without the necessary insights, one would be making a bad copy of a bad design.  Jon and I had this conversation about aspects of his lovely little shooting brake.

Has anyone ever bought a cheap Chinese rip-off gadget only to find that it CANNOT work, because someone has copied a photograph without understanding HOW it should work?

We're going to build this body with a version of the very robust, 3/4" ash board, Swallow floor.  There can be absolutely no doubt about how that works!

I've often wondered about Gordon England's love of very lightweight ply construction.  The lack of surviving bodies of the many hundreds built demonstrates its inadequacies.  I have a suspicion that in the early 'twenties, GE bought a huge stock of war surplus aviation ply and was then stuck with it!

Hi Martin

I’ve just looked up the definition of pastiche.  Unfortunately it is nearly always used in connection with art.  But one example is Gauguin who went to Polynesia and painted  pastiches of the native art.  I think you might have to argue with art historians as to whether Gauguin understand how the natives painted. I, like you, assumed pastiche was a slightly negative term as in “it was a pale pastiche of the original”.

There is also a problem with “replica” which I’ve also thought as being slightly negative but the dictionary defines as an exact copy (by the artist or under the artists direction).

So it still doesn’t help in defining the excellent vehicles you produce which are (in dictionary terms) probably more akin to pastiches than replicas.

Cheers

Howard