1923 chummy

[Tony Griffiths]

What is the handling like without shocks?

I could live with no speedo, starter, or fan - but not without a little steering.

In the context of contemporary use the steering - especially for someone new to driving and unaccustomed to how a car should handle - would probably have been satisfactory. However, today, it would be very much of an adventure with the narrow beaded-edge tyres giving an even lighter, more direct feel than the wider and softer well-base types of later years and the lack of dampers - even a basic friction type - giving a floating ride. This is a car probably best enjoyed as the sun rises on a fine, summer morning.

[Mike Costigan]

My 1922 Star was devoid of shock absorbers and front wheel brakes, and mounted on skinny beaded edge tyres; the ride, handling, and steering were all a delight. I could travel over rough roads much quicker than a later, and more sporting, version equipped with shock absorbers, decent brakes and fatter well-based tyres. 


  IMG_0011.jpg (Size: 71.68 KB / Downloads: 486)

The Seven being much lighter will probably bounce around on more undulating surfaces, but I suspect it is probably much better than we think.

[Zetomagneto]

I’m with Tony on this, I would be more concerned that it’s had a new body, that doesn’t make for “original” does it?

[Tony Press]

Zeto,

I generally agree with the point about the body-  a very early 7 here (now domiciled in Sydney)  has a reproduction body which. even though very well made, I find difficult to accept as original- but then most Australian 7's have a locally built body which many in the UK found difficult to accept as 'original'.

I believe the chassis and running gear must be kept as close to original as possible on these extremely rare survivors. 

Tony.

[Tony Griffiths]

I’m with Tony on this, I would be more concerned that it’s had a new body, that doesn’t make for “original” does it?

Yes, the new body is a shame - and we will never know if the original could a) have been restored or b), was beyond restoration (i.e. rotten wood and a latticework of almost dissolved aluminium) or unnecessarily replaced so as to produce a pristine restoration. Imagine if such as car was found today complete and original but with its body, hood, sidescreens and trim on the cusp of rotting away. Surely the best approach would be to overhaul (and keep absolutely original) all the mechanical parts and get it running - but to somehow preserve or stabilise the rest, no matter how tatty it ended up looking.

[Tony Betts]

new body,

yes it would be wonderful to have a rear car, such as a 1923 car with an original body amongst all the other parts.

but talk to the severn owners who have been in all this the longest. and they will tell you, in the 60s there were only a handfull of early cars left known in running condition.

in the years since, alot of the parts have come out of sheds, scrap yards etc. and people have collected up the original and early parts to build the cars.

but the one thing that hasnt surved in the same numbers is the original bodies.

so today we have several handfully of serviving 1923 cars.

so should we be dissapointed with neww bodies???

id rather have and original chassis and engine in a car, than a box chassis altered and restamped to paperwork found. so the car looks correct with original reg.

the otherside of this is i recently bought some old 1923 body bits, so if i use them in a new body. how little original do you have before it becomes "triggers broom".

also fitting a starter motor, and fan. that can quickly be put back to original. i think is very different to fitting a rack and pinion steering.

tony

[JonE]

I’m with Tony on this, I would be more concerned that it’s had a new body, that doesn’t make for “original” does it?

Yes, the new body is a shame - and we will never know if the original could a) have been restored or b), was beyond restoration (i.e. rotten wood and a latticework of almost dissolved aluminium) or unnecessarily replaced so as to produce a pristine restoration. Imagine if such as car was found today complete and original but with its body, hood, sidescreens and trim on the cusp of rotting away. Surely the best approach would be to overhaul and keep absolutely original all the mechanical parts and get it running - but to somehow preserve or stabilise the rest, no matter how tatty it ended up looking.

My woodie is taking time and effort to preserve the dissolved aluminium holes. And the retention of some of the woodworm is a bit worrying, but I'm determined to do it, with new wood spliced directly up to tatty stuff on the tailgate.

But, as the FB thread shows, this car didn't have the benefit of a body to do that with.

Re Tony B's point: I guess it's like cars which get stored away, lost to all but their private guardians and the occasional outing. If there ARE only a few around, then they need to be out, (or at least seen, or well photo-documented), flag-waving for the marque as to how ground breaking they were at the time. If you have a '23 and make it more driveable, why not just buy a '24?

[Tony Griffiths]

I’m with Tony on this, I would be more concerned that it’s had a new body, that doesn’t make for “original” does it?

Yes, the new body is a shame - and we will never know if the original could a) have been restored or b), was beyond restoration (i.e. rotten wood and a latticework of almost dissolved aluminium) or unnecessarily replaced so as to produce a pristine restoration. Imagine if such as car was found today complete and original but with its body, hood, sidescreens and trim on the cusp of rotting away. Surely the best approach would be to overhaul and keep absolutely original all the mechanical parts and get it running - but to somehow preserve or stabilise the rest, no matter how tatty it ended up looking.

My woodie is taking time and effort to preserve the dissolved aluminium holes. And the retention of some of the woodworm is a bit worrying, but I'm determined to do it, with new wood spliced directly up to tatty stuff on the tailgate.

But, as the FB thread shows, this car didn't have the benefit of a body to do that with.

Re Tony B's point: I guess it's like cars which get stored away, lost to all but their private guardians and the occasional outing. If there ARE only a few around, then they need to be out, (or at least seen, or well photo-documented), flag-waving for the marque as to how ground breaking they were at the time. If you have a '23 and make it more driveable, why not just buy a '24?

"If you have a '23 and make it more driveable, why not just buy a '24?" - absolutely spot on. That's why my wife and I have a Ruby (well, we will next year) and a '28 Chummy.

---

...also fitting a starter motor, and fan. that can quickly be put back to original. i think is very different to fitting a rack and pinion steering.

Don't worry, Tony, the rack-and-pinion was only a joke! So long as the car can be put back to standard, nothing is lost - save perhaps the pleasure of the occasion when, on your tour of the Peak District (do call in for tea), it boils dry on a steep hill, refuses to start on the handle you have to turn it around by hand and bump start it on the way down. No, no, you can't engage top gear and use the starter motor, it ain't get one (a starter that is, not a top gear, of course....)

---

the otherside of this is i recently bought some old 1923 body bits, so if i use them in a new body. how little original do you have before it becomes "triggers broom".

Thanks for that Tony, it now poses (thanks to Wiki, I'd no idea about this before) an interesting philosophical conundrum that goes back some considerable time:
"When Roman writer Plutarch published his ‘Life of Theseus’, he described how the Athenians had maintained the ship of their famous king in the harbour as a museum piece. Every year, Plutarch tells us, rotten planks were replaced with new ones such that, over time, every part of the ship had been replaced. So, was it still Theseus’s ship? (Yes, according to Trigger and, indeed, the Athenians!) If not, at what point did it cease to be his ship? It was, said Plutarch, a philosophical problem that had divided thinkers for generations."

[robert regan]

I think that I may be one of the few people still around who knows the history of this car from its discovery by Simon Mansfield in 1972,or 73.Simon was a very good friend to me we met in 1971 I was 22 years old and Simon would be a great finder of parts he would let me have anything he had Austin seven wise and pay for them when I could.He called me one day to go and see a 1923 car he had bought through a publication called "penny farthing,"  I saw the engine and gearbox +radiator mounted on a frame  and he started it up for me, the first start had been the day before when he started it in his shed and nearly gassed himself because of all the smoke and fumes you get on a first start after many years of lying dormant. When he went to buy it he thought he was going for the engine  and gearbox +radiator but when speaking to the seller and asking if there were any more parts there he told him it was all there with bits lying everywhere , both axles were under a shed alongside the chassis the original body was there broken into two halves and after a good search most of the car was gathered together. I also seem to remember a photograph of the car towing a coffin perched on a purpose made trailer when it was working for an undertaker, I also remember that latter on Simon bought a spare chassis owned by the Birmingham science museum convincing them that they could use the money to help in the restoration of an original car that they owned . when the car was sold by his daughter Emma there was enough parts gathered by Simon over the years to create a second car and Alan Vallance had these built up into an early van, I hope this information will be of use to any future owner  and its nice to write this down as it brings back many fond memories of my good friend Simon Mansfield best regards to all Rob.

[John Barker]

This is a very interesting topic. The car is noted in the Pram Hood Register, (for Austin 7's with the 6" brakes), dated early September 1923, with an engine number and car number in the early 1700'S. The car number and chassis numbers of the early cars appear to be identical except for the prefix 1A _ _ _ _.

Regards,
John Barker
Nelson NZ